Transcript Of Steve Bracks-Robert Doyle Television Debate

This is the transcript of the one-hour televised debate between the Victorian Premier, Steve Bracks, and the Opposition Leader, Robert Doyle. The debate was broadcast on ABC television and radio. The transcript is taken from the Liberal Party's website. The debate was moderated by Ian Henderson.

• Listen to the Debate

Henderson

Hello, I'm Ian Henderson. Welcome to the Leader's debate.

It's a full ten years since Victorian political leaders last agreed to a televised election debate, and we're delighted the parties have chosen the ABC to conduct this debate, which is being simulcast on ABC local radio and audio will also be available oat ABC online.

SO welcome to the studio Steve Bracks, Labor Leader and Premier of Victoria.

Bracks

Thank you very much.

Henderson

And also welcome to Robert Doyle, Leader of the Opposition and Liberal Leader.

Doyle

Good evening Ian.

Henderson

We're also joined tonight by an expert panel who will contribute to tonight discussion.

They are: Tim Lee, our resident expert on regional issues from ABC Land Life; John Ferguson, state politics reporter for the Herald Sun; Ewin Hannan, state political editor for The Age.

And Josephine Cafagna of the ABC's Stateline program.,

Now the rules of the debate are straightforward.

After an opening question from me, the Leaders will have three minutes each to respond.

And gentlemen, we'd ask that those responses to all subsequent questions be kept pretty concise and to the point, partly out of respect four our audience, and partly so we that we can simply cover more territory tonight.

It is quite OK, though, if you want to directly question each other from time to time.

But I ask that we all observe the rules of common courtesy, no sledging, no undue talking over each other.

There is a lot to cover and so forgive me if from time to time I move thing on a little bit.

Now, the leaders tossed a coin just before we came on air.

Mr Bracks was the winner and he's offered to take the first question.

But it all evens up in the end as Mr Doyle will have the benefit of the last word at the conclusion of the debate.

So let's get on with it, Mr Bracks first to you.

What do you say are the key challenges facing the State of Victoria over the nest four years.

Bracks

Well thank you Ian.

Continuing to improve services.

We've already made significant progress but there's more to be done in health, in education, in public safety, on the streets and in the workplace.

To ensure that we have one of the safest states in Australia, a highly educated population and we have a health system which is of world class conduct in the future.

We have achieved a lot over the last three years and I am very proud of what we have achieved.

We now have almost 20,000 Victorians who are coming back to our State and finding Victoria their home in the future.

We now have 135,000 new jobs which have been created over the last three.

We have a very strong budget and fiscal position the strongest in the country.

And just three years ago, we had a situation where we had students dropping out of our school system.

We had a health system which had been cut and cut and cut.

And we had nurses who were sacked and taken out of our health system.

And we had a police force in which 800 police were taken out and sacked effectively and not replaced on the frontline and protecting Victorians.

In just three years we are seeing significant improvements. In education, there's more students now staying at school longer.

Their literacy and numeracy rates are up and rising significantly.

We've got smaller class sizes.

In health for the first time in many years we're seeing waiting lists actually reduce, and that is a good sign.

We've got more nurses in place, 3300 more nurses and we're opening up more beds around the State.

And n community safety we are very proud of the fact that we have employed 800 extra police on the frontline.

That's 800 extra police protecting Victorians and we did it 18 months ahead of the schedule we set for ourselves.

We now have in Victoria the safest state in Australia. Our crime rate is 20% below the average crime rate in the country.

And the regions.

The regions which were described by the previous Premier as the toenails of the state, with the heart pumping in the centre of the city, now get a fair share under our Government.

And the regions are going much better.

We now have situation where unemployment in regional Victoria is the lowest it's been for almost ten years and we are seeing growth with links and communication systems going to our regions in the future.

And I believe, in answering your question as well Ian, one of the biggest challenges facing us in the future is going to be to have a sustainable environment.

An environment in which we protect our forests.

An environment in which our water resources are conserved and protected and expanded in the future.

I was very pleased today for example to be at the Eildon Reservoir and to announce $50 million which will assist and support in expanding our water resource in piping the channels which are now leaking and evaporating and ensuring we have a sustainable resource in the future.

I was also proud to have a ban on logging in the Otways.

So services, growing the whole State, a better environment, these are the challenges I believe for the next four years.

Henderson

Mr Doyle, your turn.

How do you see those challenges?

What are the main challenges facing Victoria?

Doyle

Well Ian, Victoria is a great State.

It is a great place to live.

By nature, I am an optimist.

And I think a great future is possible for Victoria.

And there are so many problems and so many projects that I want to tackle.

Water projects for country Victoria.

Projects for the next generations in education and in health, projects that include big things for the environment.

But what really concerns me is that over the last three years, Victoria has had no direction.

We have been drifting.

I still believe that these are uncertain times.

And they are times when our safety and security, regrettably, can no longer be guaranteed.

In times like these we need active leadership and we need strong decision making.

Now, I've had a careful look at this and sadly over the last three years this has not been the case.

Over the last three years Labor has set up over 800 different reviews and committees.

That's one for every working day that Labor has been in office.

Now that is no way to run the State and it is no way to run an economy.

I want to do more to protect our financial base.

I believe we can't go on living beyond our means.

In the last three years Victoria's income has gone up by 20% but Labor's spending has gone up by 30%.

Now think of the future consequences of spending more than we earn.

Just three years ago Labor inherited a $1.8 billion surplus.

In the last three years they have not commenced and completed one major project.

And yet that huge surplus is all but gone.

That's why last week the Auditor General warned that out economy is vulnerable and has weaknesses

Now I want to protect our financial base to pay for our future and you have to do that by not spending more than you earn.

I believe we are at a cross roads.

This election is about the future.

The Liberal Party has practical plans for the next four years and they are fully costed.

We've released 20 positive policies for Victoria including capping council rates, minimum fixed sentences for violent criminals, removing Zone 3 fares to help working families and putting 1050 extra police on our streets for community safety.

So my message tonight is, a vibrant economy is the foundation of our future, there are real concerns about the finances of this State and the Liberal Party has the plan to protect jobs, to protect investment and to protect businesses in Victoria.

Henderson

Well gentlemen, let's get down to business.

Commentators have noted that this is the first Victorian election for 20 years in which Jeff Kennett hasn't played a part.

But I think he still casts a long shadow.

Mr Bracks, your detractors say that all you've really done is roll back some of the more unpopular features of the Kennett years.

That you've struggled to find a vision of your own and that you're a do-nothing government. What's your response?

Bracks

Well I think if you were a family who wanted to get your child a good education in Victoria you would think that things have improved over the last three years because you have got smaller class sizes and you've got students staying at school longer.

If you want to be safer on the street, with more police on the street, you would see that crime is down to the lowest it's been for some time and it was down last year again.

If you want to get a hospital bed in Victoria it's much easier now than it was with waiting lists coming down for the first time.

And no longer are regions and suburbs seen as second class citizens as they were under the previous Government.

So my answer is this Ian, my answer is that those things that really matter to Victorians are the things that have changed the things that are better and the things that have improved.

Safety on the street, good health system and ensuring that regions & suburbs grow in the future - that's what Victorians wanted and what they voted for at the last election and that's what Victorian's are getting currently under this government

Mr Doyle you say you are different to Jeff Kennett but you haven't really explained to us how you're different and with a front bench that has a number of memberswho were in the Kennett ministries why we should believe you are going to be any different.

How do you respond?

Doyle

I would just like to pick up one point that Steve made if I could Ian before I certainly come to that and that is that he mentioned that crime was down.

Well the facts show that violent crime, that is crimes against the person are actually up by 24.7%.

Bracks

Could I just make this comment I wonder if the opposition leader could comment is overall crime down this year and last year?

Henderson

Could I suggest gentlemen, we'll be able to tackle that when we get onto law and order later but I'd like to deal with leadership and vision thing if you like, I mean people really want to know Robert Doyle how are you different from Jeff Kennett?

Doyle

Well I don't think its any secret that Jeff Kennett and I didn't always get on.

Ah, I don't think that's news to anybody, I'm a different bloke from Jeff Kennett and I can tell you over the last 3 years this is a different Liberal Party.

Opposition is a hard lesson.

We've had to go out and listen to people and to learn from what they have said to us and we have done that, we have done the hard yards.

The people that are there now are a very fresh team, I have people on my front bench who only entered the Parliament in the 1999 election, and very talented people they are.

So we are a different team, a re-focused team we understand mistakes of the past but we are firmly committed to a practical plan for the next four years.

Henderson

Gentlemen a key issue in this campaign is going to be financial management.

To start off our questioning on that important subject, John Ferguson.

John Ferguson

Mr Bracks, the last budget the surplus was cut by $500 million isn't it a fact that politics are engaged in a vote buying auction, which potentially is unsustainable.

Bracks

Well, all our costings John will be checked and examined, in our case by PricewaterhouseCoopers, we've announced that already and all of them are within the framework of substantial budget surpluses in the future.

And those budget surpluses and don't believe me as a Premier, have been checked and examined by the independent separate ratings agencies, Standard and Poors who are charged and Moody Investor Services who are charged with the responsibility of looking forward on the estimates period and saying is this a strong fiscal and financial position, and they've said yes.

They've rated it AAA, now all our costings are based on the forward estimates, all our costings are their ensuring we have a surplus in the future.

I think its an incumbent on a party in a political campaign or an election to announce how they are checking and examining their costings.

We have done that.

We did that earlier in the campaign.

We said it would be PricewaterhouseCoopers, and everything we do will be examined and checked by them.

The real challenge is whether the Liberal Party will have their books examined and checked by an independent organization as well, you know they might be announcing this today, or the next day, but they should have announced this at the very very start of the campaign.

John Ferguson

And clearly Mr Doyle that same question applies to you.

Doyle

Thank you John, I thank Steve for his advice on what we should do in our campaign, I am pleased to say that Professor Neville Norman the eminent Professor of Economics at Melbourne University has agreed to independently check our costings so ours too will be independently costed as appropriate.

Look it is a very important question, but I think a couple of facts remain.

You know the Labor government inherited a budget surplus of $1.8 billion, in just three years that's nearly gone, you know just a couple of months ago the treasurer of this State told us that we had lost $515 million dollars from our surplus in just two months.

That is the first downward revision of the state surplus since Joan Kirner's time.

The Auditor General, last week, the Auditor General sent out a warning siren to Victorians about our economy.

So we believe there are real problems there and we believe those underlying problems are one of the reasons that we find ourselves first at a very early election and secondly debating before we really know the true state of Victoria's finances.

Bracks

If I could just add Ian, briefly if you look at the State financial position the state of the budget here in Victoria, we are the standout state.

You know you look at other states and they are in deficit or close to deficit.

You look at the Commonwealth, the Liberal/National government of the commonwealth have a deficit of more than $1 billion dollars, we accounted for a downturn in the stock market internationally by having a large buffer and still producing $250 million surplus this year and we are anticipating even bigger surpluses in the future.

So we are budgeting to be in the black and stay in the black and that is contrary to what is happening federally and contrary to most other jurisdictions around the world

Henderson

So you reject the assertion from Mr Doyle that that's why you've gone early to the election.

Bracks

Oh absolutely, look lets talk about the election campaign itself.

Not only do we not have a majority in the upper house we do not have a majority in the lower house either, we are a minority government now I think we've done that well and effectively and with stability but in the opportunity available to us as the constitution allows in the last year we have every right to seek a mandate and that's exactly what we are doing.

Henderson

Robert Doyle I have to let you have a go here I think

Doyle

I would say Ian that Steve talks about a surplus in Victoria. But what would the Labor Government do for instance without speeding fines.

I mean they were $99 million just 3 years ago.

The Auditor General said in his recent report that next year they will be $426 million - I don't believe you can build surpluses on things like windfall gains from speeding fines.

Mr Bracks do you concede that you have broken your promise and Labor Party policy to reduce your government's reliance on the gambling dollar and will you re-commit to that tonight?

Bracks:

Well not at all, and indeed we will commit over time reducing the reliance on gambling revenue.

There's a couple of things I should say here Josephine, I think you are probably aware of this.

One, we taxed Tabcrop and Tattersalls with windfall profit. They were making profits because they were a duopoly in the system, only two operators in it - so we increased the tax take and put that into the health system.

So therefore of course, there's going to be more taxation taken out.

Secondly, if you look at the figures, the growth in gaming revenue is still there but it's been reducing over time.

It's not at the growth rates that were there in the last government.

Its reducing.

And even the recent measures we've taken, for example to ban smoking in gaming venues.

I think you know, I think the public knows, that has had a significant effect, downward effect on revenue for those gaming venues.

So my view is yes we recommit, yes we've made a difference, yes there is more to be done and I think we're right direction.

Cafagna

Are you saying you have reduced your reliance on the gaming dollar?

Bracks

The rate of growth of gambling has reduced.

It's not growing at a greater rate.

And over time, you might even seem some reduction.

That's the trend which seems to be there in some of the smoking bans which have been in place and of course we've had two lots of legislation in place to bring in measures which the previous government wouldn't bring in, hard hit advertising, warning and bans on some advertising and also making sure that we have facilities which give people a break.

Cafagna

Mr Doyle will you promise to reduce a Liberal Government's reliance on the gaming dollar.

Doyle

Thank you Josephine.

First I couldn't quite believe what I was hearing then.

I talked before about the surplus being propped up by winfall games in speeding fines but one of the other areas that's propped up Victoria's economy has been revenue from gaming.

I think that has clearly shown that that has just increased out of control.

Now I'm not anti gambling, I guess like many Victorians I had a bet a small bet this week earlier in the week it wasn't as successful as I would have liked but things like electronic gaming machines don't have much appeal for me I must say.

And I've got some real concerns about people who I think get addicted and are problem gamblers.

I don't think we understand enough about the addictions and I don't think enough is being done to identify those people early and make sure they don't get themselves and their families into great trouble.

Now they are the focus we need to look at I think.

Cafagna

Would you commit to reducing Victoria's reliance on tax revenue from gambling.

Doyle

I would not be fussed one iota if our revenue from gaming fell because I do think it's an area where most of our community think is very concerned about governments being reliant on it.

I think it's time to move on to law & order if we may.

Hannan

Jeff Kennett in 1992 promised to employ 1000 more police.

The numbers fell during your time in Government by 800.

Why should voters believe your promise now of 1000 more police?

Doyle

Well as I've said I'm a different bloke from Jeff Kennett and we are a different Party.

That figure wasn't arrived at by accident.

What we looked at was what we wanted in our community.

And as I've said, at times like these, I think that people want a sense of safety, and security and certainty.

And regrettably, we used to take that for granted and we can no longer.

What I want is proactive policing, almost old fashioned policing.

Putting police back on the streets, back on public transport, in shopping centres, protecting our homes.

We arrived at that figure by looking at the number of police that we would need, that is 1050, and we will commit to that absolutely without equivocation, guaranteed.

They can be delivered and they will be delivered for the benefit of community safety.

Bracks

Can I just add here that this is a re-run of the past, the figures are almost the same as the Kennett Government committed.

They committed 1000 extra and they set about cutting 800.

Now it's almost as if they'll take a plank out of the Kennett Government and repeat it as a promise at this election.

The runs are on the board in our case.

We only delivered what we promised.

We said we would have 800 extra police on the streets and we actually delivered it 18 months ahead of the schedule.

And I think, you know, the public wants to know what you're delivering, not just what you're promising.

Hannan

Mr Bracks, between when you came to power in 1999 and June this year, rates of homicide, rape, assaults and aggravated burglary have actually increased over that three year period.

What do you say to the Liberal claim that you're soft on crime?

Bracks

Well you've got to look at crime overall though, Ewin and you know, some areas are going up, some are going down.

But overall it's all going down.

The total crime rate in Victoria went down this year on last year on the figures.

We have crime rates much lower than almost every state in Australia and 20% below the national average.

Our police are doing a fantastic job, they're doing a great job in ensuring that we bring the crime rate down.

When we came to office, the morale amongst the police was the lowest I think its' ever been in Victoria.

You had an attrition rate, you had police walking out and leaving and not being replaced.

You go into a police station now and see the morale that's been lifted, you see the community policing that's going on now on the streets, and it's much more effective than it has been in the past.

I've got nothing but regard for our service police officers in this state.

They are doing a fantastic job and we're committed to making sure that we, we have a sufficient police force in the future to keep the crime rate the lowest in Australia.

Hannan:

But wasn't it true that those rates have gone up over that three year period.

Bracks

Well, some have gone up but the majority has gone down.

And overall, the total crime rate is going down.

And if you look at, you know, car theft or break-in, they're areas that are going down significantly.

And overall, you know, I'm the first to admit that we want to do even better.

But you look at the performance over the last three years and any objective commentator would say, you know, we have the safest state in Australia.

Just one quick one, there was an interesting rating which occurred in the Economist Magazine rating cities around the world and Melbourne came out as the most livable city in the world again.

One of the key things which distinguished us from other cities in Australia was that we had a safe state with crime rates down.

It meant that we got that rating over Sydney and other states as well.

And that was a good indication objectively and independently.

Henderson

Jospehine.

Cafagna

Mr Doyle you released your law and order policy yesterday.

You say you are tough on crime but it seems you're soft on speeding motorists.

If the road toll rises under a Liberal Government will you change that policy?

Doyle

Jospehine, first could I just answer some of the things that Steve said then because I don't think that question was earlier answered.

Those serious crimes against people, those serious things like homicide and home invasion are up over the last three years by 24.7%.

Those crimes are up.

And I must say, looking at our society, when you look at the aftermath of the September 11th riots, and people say to themselves well hang on, there's one protestor convicted and three police officers are reprimanded.

Haven't we, sort of, got that the wrong way around? I mean, is that what we would expect in our community, to support our police?

We've got a Royal Commission going on right now, the Cole Royal Commission into the building and construction industry, with evidence of crime and wrongdoing.

And Steve has been completely silent on that coincidentally since the day I was elected as Leader.

So, I think there are some real questions about the Labor Party being soft on crime.

Let me make this point about the road toll.

I think that's what happened over the last three years is that the focus has moved away from road safety and towards revenue collection which has ramped up over the last three years.

Now I will trade revenue any day for real road safety initiatives. And I think we should be thinking about road safety.

Now regrettably, the road toll seems to have stuck at about 400 after some great inroads, it seems to have stopped at about 400 and we need to look at some imaginative and creative ways of making sure that road toll comes down.

Henderson

Mr Bracks, hasn't Mr Doyle got a point there?

I mean, are people doing 64 in a 60 zone really the dangerous drivers who attract a fine?

It does look a bit like naked revenue raising.

Bracks

Look I think this is a very important matter and a very important choice that Victorians have to make.

In a sense this is probably one of the issues that probably transcends party political matters.

The road toll has always been a bi-partisan issue which has always enjoyed support from both sides of politics.

We have a situation now where the road toll from the measures we've taken has gone down on last year significantly.

And we now have in metropolitan Melbourne the lowest road toll ever in the history of Victoria, in the history of metropolitan Melbourne, the lowest ever.

So the measures we've undertaken are working. I'm very concerned about any leader of any political organisation or any body in Victoria who effectively by their actions encourages people to speed.

Now let me give you an example of that.

The example is this, we have 110 on some of our roads in Victoria.

If you were to have the arrangements that the Opposition Leader's proposing you would effectively allow people to travel up to more than 120 without being booked. More than 120 on those roads.

Unclear

Bracks

Yeah, well there's no doubt that speed kills.

Speed kills.

There's no doubt about that.

We will do everything to bring down the road toll and I am very concerned about any message from any political leader effectively saying, it's not too bad to speed a little bit.

I think that's that the wrong message absolutely.

Henderson

Mr Doyle

Doyle

Come on Steve, I mean really.

A speedo needle is thicker than the amount required for 3km an hour.

You know that.

You know that 3km an hour is not about road safety, it's about collecting revenue.

And I think it's a little unfair to suggest that in some way we are soft on the road toll or we're not interested in road safety.

What we're not interested in is mere revenue collection.

Bracks

Well can I reiterate, the road toll in Melbourne is the lowest it's ever been in the history of collection of road tolls.

The measures are actually working.

My fear is if you start to relax and say to people as legislators that it's not too bad to speed.

Henderson

I think, I think…

Bracks

If that tolerance is there though Ian.

If I can finish on this.

That will effectively give permission to people to speed and that means loss of lives.

Henderson

I think we've got both your points there.

Let's move on a little now a change gear.

As in 1999 this election may well be decided on regional and rural issues which is precicely why we've got Tim Lee here to talk to you.

Lee

Jobs and services are clearly what matter in rural and regional Victoria.

Firstly Mr Bracks, you promised fast rail to the regions, won't this simply mean bringing more people to work in Melbourne.

Bracks

No, well thank you very much for your question Tim and I am very proud of the fact that we're spending some $550 million to bring fast rail to Bendigo, Ballarat, Geelong and the Latrobe Valley.

And all the examinations and visibility studies show that that will mean that people in Melbourne can choose on whether they want to work in some of those regional areas and bring with them their incomes and their spending.

And it's much more about population growth, it's much more about regional economies than it is about just simply having a fast rail root between those the capital cities and the provinces.

And it fits in also with our vision ah for Victoria itself. We see Victoria as having a vibrant and great international city in Melbourne, and vibrant and great regions.

With inter-links and close links in transport and communications and so you can have up those corridors growth and population and you can have job generated incomes ah for people working in Melbourne, if you like, and working in those regional centers.

It's an important part of our vision for Victoria. I am very proud of it, and I am very proud the projects have started on those four lines.

It will make an enormous difference in the future to Victoria.

Lee

Mr Doyle do you support that given that under previous Kennett Government there was an abandonment of a great of country services.

Doyle

Well Tim, first I am interested that Steve talks about these projects as if they have been delivered, they have not been.

And you know, and in some cases there hasn't been a sleeper laid or a spike driven.

I mean, they've been promised, but as you said, they've been started.

Well what's been happening for the last three years.

If these were the major projects which were promised by Labor before the last election, what have they been doing for three years that only now they can say, well we've started them.

And then you have to think them through.

What are you going do with that train from Ballarat when it hits Sunshine?

When it actually hits the metropolitan network.

And it isn't a fast train anymore, it's quite a slow train really because it's into the same network as the metropolitan trains.

I think there are some real problems with simply promising rather than delivering.

Bracks

Well the projects have started, the contracts have been signed and the work has been undertaken.

I think the question we should be dwelling on is do you support them?

If you happen to be in government in the future would you sign on and complete them?

Doyle

We would honour all contracts unlike this previous Government who, for instance, at Seal Rock abandoned a contract at what might be cost of who knows how many hundreds of millions of dollars to the taxapayer. No, we will honour all contracts.

Bracks

Well I think it's pleasing to note that the Liberal Party have discovered rail again.

Lee

Just on another issue the worsening drought has also put up the threat of serious fire.

Now, right across Victoria there's an enormous concern about the lack burning off during the cooler months.

How confident are you that coming Summer, Mr Bracks, that we prepared for an emergency.

Bracks

This is potentially one of the worse seasons, potentially one of the worst seasons ever in Victoria for fire to occur right around the State.

Obviously with the drought conditions areas of the state will be tinderbox dry.

We are therefore putting on significant extra fire personnel, both in the CFA and the MFB to cope with that.

We've got more resources in place in equipment and helicopters and other equipment to support our fire service workers in the future.

There is no doubt that we are well prepared but there is also no doubt that it's going to be a very very difficult season and I think everyone anticipates and expects that of course with the severe drought conditions we've seen around Victoria.

Henderson

Mr Doyle, what will your Government do?

Doyle

I might first say that it gave me great concern that while the Labor Government was spending tens of millions of dollars on government advertising we had a drought throughout country Victoria that simply wasn't being recognised by this government and I think that was very hurtful to many farming communities and farming families.

And when finally they were able to say the word "drought" what they really did was too little and too late.

The aftermath of the drought of course is very severe fire conditions.

One thing that you can rely on us to do is to support volunteers, particularly those in the CFA who've been the absolute backbone of firefighting in country Victoria.

Now that's something that a Labor Government has difficulty with particularly because of their relationship with the unions.

We on the other hand would greatly support our volunteers.

I think Victoria's got a large problem to face here and that is that after Ash Wednesday when a lot of new plant was bought, a lot of new trucks were bought for the CFA.

Many of those are now reaching the end of their life and we will need a positive plan to make sure that that stock is replaced.

Henderson

Mr Doyle can I take you up on another issue that I know is a vital concern to country Victoria and that is water.

I mean I think that what the Government's done on environmental flows in the Snowy is well-known.

How do you strike the balance between what's needed to keep environmental flows going and the legitimate needs of irrigators?

Doyle

We fully support environmental flows to the Snowy.

We think it was a political stunt however that flows were put down the Snowy at a time when country Victoria was in drought.

Now country people understand that.

They would understand that it was not the time to return water to the Snowy when water was missing from the rest of Victoria.

So we were very concerned about that as a political stunt. But water as a priority?

I think it is going to be the major question facing us particularly in infrastructure over the next ten and 20 years in country Victoria.

Bracks

Just if I could on the Snowy, um so that I think we can have some more information about that question … the Snowy arrangement to have more flows down the Snowy was a joint Government arrangement.

It was initiated by the Victorian Government but with the support of the New South Wales Government the South Australian Government and the Commonwealth Government as well.

All signed on to the arrangements to increase the flow of the Snowy to 28 per cent over a period of years.

All signed on to that.

So the Commonwealth Government, the New South Wales Government, the South Australian Government and the Victorian Government are all part of it.

We will do that by water savings.

That is by ensuring that water which is lost now through evaporation and seepage through bad management on tributaries going in that we save that water and put it down.

Henderson

We have heard that from you earlier today and I'm going to stop you there simply because I'm being told that you're well ahead on time tonight and we're going to give Mr Doyle a little bit more oxygen.

Doyle

Can I answer that first?

No one disagrees with those flows down the Snowy.

But it was a question of timing.

I mean surely when a lot of country Victoria is in drought.

I mean country people support each other and they know we're committed to those flows.

But they would also understand that at that time a better use of that water would have been for farming families and farming communities.

And I think that a lot of them saw that as a slight on country Victoria.

Could I also say that we …

Bracks

Just on that misinformation if I could for a sec, there is no feasible technical way that that water could've been used for anything than what it's used.

So I think the facts might be useful in this case.

Henderson

Ok gentlemen, we'd like to try something a little bit different now at this stage of the debate.

To take your political pulse, so to speak, and cover a few more issues.

I've a series of questions first for you Mr Bracks and then for you Mr Doyle, to which we would like a one-word answer, or at the very least a one-sentence answer so brevity here is the very soul of wit. So, as time's on the wing let's go Mr Bracks:

Will you revisit the idea of heroin injecting rooms if you win government again?

Bracks

No we won't.

Henderson

Do you support a closed shop on building sites?

Bracks

That's up to the workplace themselves to decide democratically.

Henderson

If all else fails would you buy the defence land at Point Nepean to ensure it remains a national park?

Bracks

We're actually very prepared and ready to do that very thing but we want the owner to clean it up properly, you know the explosives and the … I know I'm going a bit long …

Henderson

I know the issue, if they don't?

Bracks

Um, the answer is, yes we would proceed we have the legislative capacity to do that for our green wedge legislation that if the Commonwealth ever try and dispose of this, we will make sure by legislation it stays in public hands and part of a national park.

Henderson

Would you categorically rule out putting any more tolls on new or existing roads?

Bracks

Yes I will.

Henderson

Will you reduce stamp duty for homebuyers?

Bracks

No we don't plan to reduce stamp duty, we believe that is an important revenue base for the future, it is cyclical, it will go up and down, depending on the economy and depending on the building activity at the time.

Henderson

Mr Doyle it's now your turn.

Doyle

Do I get a prize for one word answers if I'm very brief?

Henderson

I think he's established the ground rules here …

Doyle

Oh no I'll try to the original rules in one word.

Henderson

Question number one is will you retain Christine Nixon as Police Commissioner if you win government?

Doyle:

Yes.

Henderson

Question two: will you renegotiate the MCG contract to get Federal money even if that means trouble with the unions.

Doyle

Yes.

I believe in the rule of law on our building sites the same as everywhere else.

Henderson

Will you match Labor's commitment to stop logging in the Otways and woodchipping in the Wombat State Forest.

Doyle

I believe we have a contract, something I was asked about before, an RFA.

We have a sustainable study done just one year ago by this Government which said logging in the Otways is sustainable.

I'll go with scientific evidence.

Henderson

That's a no?

Doyle

That's a no.

Henderson

Would you categorically rule out putting any more tolls on new or existing roads?

Doyle

Yes.

Henderson

And will you reduce stamp duty for homebuyers.

Doyle

Yes.

Henderson

Finally to both of you, and a slightly longer answer is acceptable here, Steve Bracks is there anything positive you can say about your opponent tonight?

Bracks

Well yes of course there is, I think um anyone who heads up a major political party as the Labor Party or the Liberal Party is, um obviously, is someone who's got courage and determination to be accountable and to be a leader and I think you know it's a very difficult task and I think I said to the Opposition Leader at some stage in the Parliament you carry with you a lot of responsibility for your team, for the people that are MPs for the people who are candidates and I respect people who are accountable, who are prepared to stand up and I would say to my opponent I understand the onerous nature of the job he's doing and I understand therefore the qualities he's undertaken to take that job.

Henderson

Robert Doyle, is there anything positive you can say about your opponent here?

Doyle

I think he's a nice bloke. I'm just very concerned that not enough is getting done.

Henderson

Ok gentlemen if the polls are to be believed, the issues at the top of the minds of voters in Victoria at the moment are health and education.

Bracks

John would you like to get us rolling here?

Ferguson

Sure, Mr Bracks, um, your government's had some significant gains in health over the past three years but there are two core areas where you seem to be having a little bit of trouble.

One is ambulance bypass rates and the other is the number of people waiting on trolleys.

Why?

Bracks

Well in terms of ambulance bypass rates, they are coming down, they are the lowest they've been for ten years.

In relation to trolleys, we are opening up more beds, we've had 800 more beds open up round the state, we've got more nurses in place, about 3,300 more nurses and of course that will make an enormous difference in meeting the health needs in the future.

But there is more still to be done and of course we'll be laying that out over the course of this campaign.

Currently, we are treating about 35,000 patients extra each year.

There are about a million patients who are treated each year in our health system in Victoria.

So we're treating more patients, we've got an ageing population of more people seeking health care, more people coming in.

And despite that, for the first time in many years, we're actually getting waiting lists down and reducing.

And despite that increase, the number of people seeking treatment, we're also opening up more beds and having more patients treated.

Henderson

Mr Doyle, the twin problems of bypass rates and number of patients waiting on trolleys.

I mean, can you fix it and how will you fix it if you can?

Doyle:
It can be fixed. You need to understand how emergency departments work and you need to understand how the whole system works.

Unfortunately that has not been the case with the Labor Government.

They have not understood the hospital system.

It's one thing to say we've put lots more money in, but why in that case on every key indicator, that is objective and reported quarterly, is the hospital system now worse than it was three years ago.

And that is true.

On every key indicator it is worse than it was three years ago.

You need to understand how to balance the whole system and in particular you need to understand emergency departments.

That's work that I was doing before we left government last time, particularly in looking at trauma throughout the State.

Henderson

Can you explain exactly how your approach would be different and you would make those efficiencies?

Doyle:
There's one areas that's a real problem for us and that is you need to make sure that people who need interim care are moved out of those emergency departments quite quickly, you need to have rapid country hospitals.

The health system, and again Steve made a virtue before of the health system treating 30,000 more patients this year, it does every year!

That's the amount of growth in our health system every single year.

The really big increase came in 95/96, when we went from about 600,000 people to over 900,000 people being treated.

So yes there are pressures in the health system.

But if you understand the whole system and if you understand how it works, then you can deliver real benefits to Victoria.

Bracks

The key question I think, Ian, you raised and I don't think the Opposition Leader has yet addressed it is what part did he play in the closure of those hospitals and the sacking of those nurses that happened under his previous Government of which he was a Parliamentary Secretary for Health? What part did he play?

Doyle:

Well, I'm actually proud of the way that the health system performed.

If Steve's Government is doing such a fantastic job and has put on so many extra nurses and we have so many more hospitals, why is it on all of the key indicators, the health system has actually gotten worse?

Henderson

I think we're there, Ewin, if you would like to move it on please.

Hannan

Mr Doyle, you've complained about sweetheart deals between Labor and the unions, can you guarantee that teacher numbers won't be cut and secondly, will we see a return to self-governing schools under the Liberals?

Doyle

I can guarantee that teacher numbers will not be cut.

You will see autonomy in schools, yes.

You will see schools properly supported.

The one area, and it's the reason I am in politics rather than still in education because I was a teacher, I was very proud of that.

I was proud of putting thousands of young people on a strong path in life.

But the one thing that got me into politics is because Labor doesn't understand quality in education.

They don't like excellence.

They think one size fits all.

That's why we are the only state that doesn't test our year seven students.

We are the only state that doesn't benchmark our year three and our year five students against national benchmarks, as indeed was agreed by all states in the Commonwealth.

Because Labor doesn't understand and doesn't trust quality in schools.

That will be my drive, it's the one thing I wish to return to the education system.

Bracks

Well you have to ask the question, why were literacy and numeracy standards reducing and going down under the Liberal Government?

Why was retention rates which when they came to office they were 80% plus, they went below 80%, more students were dropping out of school.

Why was it that we inherited in 1999 the lowest spending per student of any state in Australia?

We've had to lift that profile to make it the second highest spending per student of any state in Australia.

We're now seeing, under our Government, literacy and numeracy levels going above the national average and we're now seeing under our Government also that students are staying at school longer and retention rates are going up again.

I think outcomes are important. Outcomes are happening under our Government.

Those cuts were deep and profound and reduced outcomes.

Henderson

Mr Doyle, one more stab at this.

Doyle

Absolutely, if you don't mind.

I mean, I find that remarkable.

I think Steve has again confused spending with outcomes. Promises with delivery.

He talks about increased literacy and numeracy, there isn't a numeracy program to help young people at the moment in the early years of primary school.

We have promised that today.

There should be to match the one that we put in in literacy.

If this is the case that we're above national benchmarks, why has this Government refused to put in the Budget papers as was promised, national benchmarks for our year three and year five students.

Henderson

I'm going to have to move things on now.

And look, you've been on the receiving end of questions from us for the debate so, I'd like to shift gear again and hand it over to you gentlemen.

Mr Bracks, 17,000 more.

Bracks

Yes, but you used the statistic that had university lecturers in it.

Is that correct?

Did you or not?

Doyle

Hang on.

It is the ABS who said this.

Not me, the Australian Bureau of Statistics.

Bracks

We don't employ university lecturers.

Doyle

All I am saying to you Steve is that they are Victorian public servants, that Australian Bureau of Statistics said that, not me.

Henderson

I think most people who would have read the newspapers over recent days would realise you're arguing over a semantic point here which is probably a debate to have some other time but I don't want to get bogged down in it tonight.

Robert Doyle, your turn to ask a question of Mr Bracks.

Doyle

Steve, can you guarantee us that you'll be able to take on the unions?

Are you going to be soft on them?

Why have you made no response to the Cole Royal Commission?

Why won't you allow the Office of the Employment Advocate onto the MCG site?

Why did you knock back $90 million of federal funding and tip in $77 million of Victorian taxpayers' money when that money was on the table from the Commonwealth?

Bracks

Well I'm very pleased to have that question and explain exactly what happened with the MCG funding.

Will the Employment Advocate be able to go on the site of the MCG?

The answer is, yes.

Will the Workplace Relations Act apply on the MCG site, the answer is yes.

Why did we tip in $77 million?

Because we had an agreement under the tender arrangements where the Federal Government said they would put in $90 million, they knew exactly what was happening under the tender, the tenders were concluded, at the last minute a different minister, the Federal Workplace Relations Minister, Mr Abbott, intervened and wanted to change the whole tender arrangements and have additional matters over and above the Workplace Relations Act.

Now I have a wider responsibility to get the MCG completed by the Commonwealth Games target of 206 [sic].

And it wouldn't have been done if we had to re-tender it and that was what was sought by the Workplace Relations Minister.

That wider responsibility is why we took that action.

Doyle

Well I very rarely agree with Paul Keating, but he said, never stand between a state premier and a bag of money.

I'd have to say, I have never seen a state premier turn down $90 million of Commonwealth money and then tip in $77 million, and that seems like a very torturous explanation to me.

I think he's just caved into the CFMEU.

Bracks

Well, you know, we have to complete this project.

If it went to re-tender the timelines would not have been there for it to be completed by 206. It was a very simple matter.

The Federal Government knew what was happening, a different minister intervened, sought to change the tender arrangements, it was not appropriate.

The workplace relations act will apply the employment Advocate will apply, the federal laws will apply on the MCG site as they should.

Doyle

Mr Bracks, how much are the TV and print ads of the past few months, pre-election being called, cost the taxpayer?

Bracks

Well the ads you're referring to were not just in the last few months but have been over a period of time.

For example we said we wanted more nurses in the system it's a very competitive market place, there's a shortage of nurses Australia and internationally so we advertised for more nurses, we advertised for more police officers we advertised for more teachers, we advertised to promote our manufacturing industry.

These are important policy areas objectives our government.

I couldn't image the last government in Victoria advertising for more teachers, nurses and police office because they were actually sacking them.
But those ads have increased of late.

Doyle

How much have they cost?

Bracks

Oh well those individual amounts and costs are in individual departments.

I don't have a total cost.

They were all about ensuring we had more tachers, more nurses and that was importantly a policy objective of our government.

One we were elected on, by the way, in 1999.

Doyle

Steve you know that's not right, you know that that is not right.

These advertisements have been running, long after you have claimed your recruitment targets for nurses, teachers and police officers they are self congratulation, self promotion, they are political and that's why they had to be authorized.

Henderson

Quite unlike any of the similar sorts of messages that we were used to seeing under the Kennett government, I mean I recall similar

Doyle

Well I can make you an absolute iron clad guarantee, we will not be using tens of millions of tax payers dollars in any government that I lead to advertise the government.

Henderson

Will you legislate on that?
Will you legislate to ban those sorts of ads?

Doyle

I think that would be a reasonable step to take.

Henderson

I mentioned this previously, do you accept that there is a bit of a public sentiment out there that the level of advertising was a bit over the top and would you accept limits in future governments?

Bracks

When you are a government that is committed to improving education, health and public safety and a government that needs to compete in the marketplace to get people to Victoria to take up those jobs or get them back in the workforce, they use to be there for refresher courses back in the ___ its important that we do that properly and appropriately.

And I don't make no apologies I think its important for a government that's expanding education, health and public safety.

For a government that's recruiting we want recruitment ads out there.

Not dissimilar of course to the recruitment ads we see all the time for our defence forces which are appropriate to try and entice people to serve in our defence force.

Doyle

But these are not recruitment ads, these are not recruitment ads, I mean they are on radio, they are on television, they are on every billboard you go past.

I mean they are tens of millions of tax payers dollars used to promote a Labor government.

Bracks

Well they worked.

We have…

Doyle

So they've promoted a Labor Government

Bracks

They worked.

We have got more teachers employed, we have more nurses employed, we have got more police employed.

Henderson

Can we leave this now, Tim Lee I believe you have a question for Mr Doyle on coalitions.

Lee

Mr Doyle can you put on the public record, should you need to form government after the election will you call on the Nationals to form a coalition?

Doyle

We will stand a candidate in every single seat Tim. And that is upper and lower house and I will be fighting hard for every single Liberal candidate to win every single electorate.

Henderson

Don't the public have a right to know whether there will be a coalition government? If you don't get the numbers:

Doyle

But ah, I must say over the last governments whether it was Hamer or even back to Bolte or the first two Kennett governments we didn't need to be in coalition and I'll be looking to win in our own right.

Henderson

And if you don't?

Doyle

Well I be looking, we have I mean the history of Liberal parties have been, I mean both Kennett Governments won in their own right, as did Hamer as did Bolte.

We'll be looking to win in our own right.

Bracks

Well I must admit I'm surprised I thought it was a simple question and I'm surprised by the answer.

I would have thought it was obvious that if the chance was there they would go into coalition with the National Party.

I'm very surprised about the answer.

Doyle

Well that's perhaps that's what Steve did with the independents, ah is he suggesting that we are no different from them?

I mean my view is as I've said, I will support Liberal candidates in every seat.

Henderson

Mr Doyle on upper house reform do you agree that changes are necessary.

Doyle

Well I agree with one, we would be very happy to see it, I agree with fixed four year terms.

And apparently so does Steve and his party just a month ago and yet we find ourselves paradoxically at an election that is one whole year early.

Henderson

They have eight year terms.

Doyle

Well they have eight year terms now.

They actually have eight year terms now of course and I see nothing wrong with that.

Bracks

I do actually, I think its unaccountable to have a situation where in this election in 2002 half of the legislative council members will not come up for election.

So the public won't get the opportunity to vote for half the legislative council until three or four years time, I think that's undemocratic frankly, I think you want a fresh mandate not a stale mandate.

I agree with fixed four year terms but only on the condition that both houses of parliament and not just one.

Henderson

What's wrong with that Robert Doyle?

Doyle

No I think that in parliaments all round the world upper houses traditionally have longer terms than the lower house and I think there is a great deal to be said about that. I mean I think

Henderson

Eight years seems like an awful long time.

Doyle

But its what we have now though, it is what we have now it is the present system and I believe it serves us well.

I think what the Labor Party want is a blank cheque, this is not about reform, that's a word that is thrown around easily, this about change because you cannot democratically win the upper house, and so what you want to do is change the rules.

Well I can tell you the rules as they would have changed them would have completely denied country Victoria a voice in the upper house in the Victorian Government.

The parliament is not some play thing of the Labor Party.

Its their to represent people and the upper house in Victorian Parliament is elected just as the lower house is.

Bracks

I think the answer is he's happy with eight year terms in the upper house.

Doyle

Well presumably so is the Victorian Parliament because the..

Bracks

Sorry

Doyle

Because the bill that Steve put up didn't get through the lower house.

Bracks

Robert the party I represent is not satisfied with that, we want to see general reform.

We want to see a Senate style election with proportionate representation, we want to see fixed 4 years terms in the upper house.

I don't think the public should expect anything less, they should be able to express at any one election their wishes and I think that's fair.

Doyle

This about capture the upper house. And you'd have to ask yourself why?

What is behind this desire to tear up what we do now, to tear up our system and to capture it?

Is it to bring back some of these loopy left social engineering programmes?

Is it to bring back, despite what Steve says, bring back heroin injecting rooms?

Henderson

We are going to have to leave it there gentlemen, because we are almost out of time.

So I would invite you now to sum up in the space of no more than 90 seconds, you first Mr Bracks, what is the key thing that differentiates you from your rival Mr Doyle here?

Bracks

Well I think the key thing is that we stand for all of Victoria and not just part of it.

The Liberal Party has become the party of the center of Melbourne not suburbs, not the regions and not the country.

We are the only party that represents all of Victoria and are committed to growing all of the State.

We are the only party also to improving further our education system, to improving further our health system to making sure we maintain our rating as safest state in Australia and we are the only party committed to ensuring that we have sustained economic growth by internationalizing the Victorian economy and having us as a center for manufacturing excellence in the region in which we operate.

We have a proud performance over the last three years but I believe there is more to be done.

There's more to be done in growing the economy, there's more to be done in ensuring we have better services and there's more to be done in ensuring that no matter where you live, no matter what your postcode is that you've got a fair chance of getting and job and good services.

And that's our commitment to Victorians.

Henderson

Mr Doyle you had the same question, what differentiates you from Mr Bracks here and as you are a little behind on time you can be a little more expansive if you wish.

Doyle

What a wonderful invitation, thanks Ian.

Ian, I love this State, I love it, I want to see it prosper, I want to see it flourish, I want to see people get ahead.

I want to be confident about our future, I want to a safer and more secure community that's why we will put 1050 more police on our streets to protect our homes, to make them safer.

I want to help working families, I want to give them practical opportunities to get ahead.

That's why we will and promise to remove zone 3 fares to help working families, that's why we will cap council rates, I want to help country Victoria.

I worry about small towns in country Victoria like Myrtleford where I grew up I worry when I see young people without job opportunities and I see those towns hollowing out and you can protect country jobs by bringing things like natural gas to a town like ____ so that employers can create opportunities for young people.

And you can also help them in small ways, you can help them with their bridges, you can help them maintain and repair those sorts of things.

I want to champion small business, because small business is the engine room of our economy and it is not easy to run a small business.

This election is about the future its about the next four years and I don't believe people want to see politicians slanging each other off, they want to see policies, ideas, a plan.

Our policies are funded, costed, responsible but we have drifted for three years.

There is good reason to be concerned about our economy.

We cannot afford three more years of inactivity.

Now Opposition have taught us a lot.

Its taught us that you have to listen to people.

We've done that and we've learned a lot.

I want all Victorians to share in a future of exciting and creative projects and I make this simple pledge to you I want to make Victoria the best state that it can be.

Henderson

Mr Doyle, Mr Bracks thank you very much for your time here tonight and for the tenure of the debate, I might say too, one final question, I think this has all gone pretty well tonight, and I think debate is the oxygen of democracies, so how about doing it again in a fortnight's time when we have a bit more concrete policy and even a bit more financial fact on the block after the review comes in next week.

Mr Doyle would you be in it?

Doyle

Absolutely delighted, anytime anywhere.

Henderson

Mr Bracks.

Bracks

It's the first debate in 10 years, its been reintroduced by our government because we want democracy to flourish and I think its appropriate that we have it now and I don't plan any more debates.

Henderson

Well we might just have to leave that one hanging in the air.

To both of you can I just say this, the very best of luck for November 30th.

Thank you to panel who have acquitted themselves very well tonight I think and to all of you at home, thanks for your attention and may all your votes count. From the ABC's Ripponlea studios, goodnight.